Kejriwal is naive while Modi is a fascist: Mani Shankar Aiyar tells India TV

New Delhi: Mani Shankar Aiyar is one person who wears his secular credentials on his sleeves. He calls himself a 'secular fundamentalist' and he has very strong views on issues like secularism and communalism. Being a former diplomat, he also has his own solution to the bottlenecks in Indo-Pakistan relationship. In an exclusive interview to www.indiatvnews.com, Mani Shankar Aiyar shared his views on a range of issues from Congress support to Kejriwal to Modi's PM candidature besides his views on Indo-US stand-off and the possible solution to Kashmir issue. Mani Shankar Aiyer termed Arvind Kejriwal as naive and said that support to AAP is strategically aimed at stopping BJP from coming to power. Aiyar in his usual style termed BJP as anti-national and said that Narendra Modi is fascist in his approach and he is following Adolf Hitler. Here goes the full text of the interview: Q: Sometime back you had said that Congress may not win 2014 elections and that a spell in opposition will do good for the Congress party. Does it mean that senior leaders like you have already conceded defeat irrespective of whether Rahul Gandhi is projected as PM candidate or not? Mani: Not at all. I never said that the Congress will be defeated or should give up hope. In 2004, at exactly this time January, Mr Vajpayee was so confidant of a BJP win that he brought forward the elections by nearly six months. And I recall that Yogendra Yadav, who was then not a political activist but a psephologist of some renown, had written an article in The Hindu in early February saying that whereas everybody thinks the outcome of this election is open and shut and the NDA will return to power, this may not be so. And it ended up with a thorough defeat for the NDA and a huge victory for the Congress party which then formed the UPA government. So you don't give up any election until it's over, you fight for it. But I was making a completely separate point that even if we get defeated we can avail of that opportunity in opposition to do the revamping of the party which has been proposed since Rajiv Gandhi's famous centenary speech of 28 December 1985 but has never been implemented within Congress party because every time we win, those who are at the head of the party say why change anything. Only when we are in opposition then even ideas arise about how we can make things better. So while I believe that Rahul Gandhi in particular will make the changes whether we are in power or not, I think the opposition within the party to attempts by him to radically alter the nature of the Congress party might be more successful if we are not that successful in elections. And the other thing is that it is very unlikely that any govt formed in 2014 will be able to last its full term. So it's entirely possible that we'll have another election in 2016 or even 2015. So this spell in opposition if we happen to lose will not be too long but it'll be sufficient for us to undertake the recasting of Congress party in 21st century to make it the natural party of governance in the 21st century as it has been in 20th century. Q: Being a senior politician, what is your reading of current political scenario in the country, especially from Congress perspective? Mani: The polity in India has never been fractured as much as it is today. We saw the consequences of the fracturing in 1989 Lok Sabha elections which threw up the V P Singh govt and started a process where the normal life of a government is a few months or at most a few years. That fracturing in 1989 was less than what it is today. You take my own state of Tamil Nadu. You had the one DMK that won in 1967. Within 5 years, it had split between the MGR faction that came to be known as AIADMK later on and the DMK. Today, you have the PMK, DMDK, MDMK and so on and so forth. There has been a fracturing of the Dravidian movement. And therefore, if there has been a fracturing of Congress domination over the political system today as compared to Nehru's day, then it is a proof of the advance of the democracy. And since we are the sole authors of democracy in India then it is a matter of pride for us that the doors have really been proved to be open and the Aam Aadmi Party, in particular, has convincingly demonstrated to the Aam Aadmi that there is a prospect for the Aam Aadmi to be participative in our democratic process. And in that sense we welcome the maturing of Indian democracy even though for our party, it throws up the problem that Lord Rama had in fighting Ravana that there wasn't one head to fight , there were 10 heads to fight. So we are tackling the 10 heads. Q: Do you believe that Congress should declare Rahul Gandhi the PM candidate without any further delay? Mani: We don't have a presidential system and there is absolutely no need for us to declare who the PM candidate was. Even in 2004, where did we declare that Sonia Gandhi was our PM candidate? We all assumed she would be. And in the event she decided she wouldn't take it and somebody whose name was not in the picture became the prime Minister of India. And in 2009, obviously because he was already the Prime Minister we didn't have to name a PM candidate. We would have done so only we had wished to change him. In 2014, he has withdrawn himself from the race for PM. So let's see what the outcome is. I think, very correctly, Sonia Gandhi has said that we'll name the candidate at an appropriate time. And there is no knowing whether the appropriate time is before or after the elections but I suspect that it will be after rather than before. I don't really know what really is in the offing because I'm being deliberately kept out of everything in the Congress. I'm the total outsider. So I know less than you know about what is happening in the Congress. Q: You have seen Rahul Gandhi growing up. You know him better than many other people in this country. There is a section, both within and outside Congress, which believes that Rahul has failed to deliver. So how do you look at Rahul as a possible Prime Minister of India? Mani: The Rajiv Gandhi family was a very close knit family and a very private family. So although I had occasionally met Rahul while he was growing up, I cannot, in any way, claim to have known him except perhaps in the election campaign of 1989 when he travel several places with his father and I was part and parcel of that suite. After his father's assassination, he was mostly out of India so I didn't really see him. The first opportunity I got of interacting with him as a political personality was when the Lok Sabha elections of 2004 took place. And it was my expectation that because of my association with his father I would be associated with him but that never happened. It did not happen then and it has not happened now. Now I have known him as a politician for 10 years but I had hardly any interaction with him. Therefore I'm not really in a position to answer your question on the basis of personal knowledge. At best I can say that I have watched his performance as the general secretary in-charge of the youth Congress and Student Congress. And he certainly brought in a completely new, a totally revolutionarily ethos in youth Congress and student Congress. When he got elected as vice president and he placed himself to the same path for the parent body, I cheered louder than perhaps anybody else has. I'm completely unimpressed with the electoral setbacks that we had. States like Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh were bound to go to the BJP. Rajasthan has been swinging between two parties and this time it was BJP's turn. I was a bit concerned about Delhi but the victory here has been of the AAP and not of the BJP. And I admire Rahul for deciding that his first publicized political foray will be in an impossible state like UP. He could have easily taken the path of championing the cause of the Congress, say in Maharashtra or in Andhra Pradesh that it used to be. But no, he picked up the biggest challenge of all recognizing that if you don't win UP you can't run the country on your own. You may run the country in partnership. Q: But in UP, BJP is moving forward with a clear cut agenda but the congress is left with no option in the state. Mani: Who says? On both counts, I'd disagree with you. I don't think BJP is moving forward in UP at all and I don't think that the Congress is a gone case there. What is a totally new factor and one which can upset a lot of calculations is that in that part of Uttar Pradesh which runs within the greater Delhi belt, extending from Aligarh to Bareilly, the AAP intends to make a showing. They are the force that seems to have attracted a lot of attention. And therefore, some of the calculations that are going on may have to be reworked. And there I see that the worst sufferer is the BJP. Why? Because one psephologist on another TV channel has publically stated that his calculations show that for every 0.1 percent of the national vote that goes to the AAP , 1 BJP seat will be lost. So if the AAP were to get 1 percent of the national vote, the BJP will lose 10 seats that it would have otherwise got. At 5 percent, BJP would lose 50 seats and if AAP gets 10 percent, BJP would lose 100 seats. So if I were in BJP, I would be running scared. Q: It's very clear that the BJP is scared of AAP and that's why they have sharpened their attack on AAP of late but as we saw in Delhi assembly elections, AAP caused maximum damage to Congress. Your CM lost the elections and your party had never fared so badly in Delhi. Mani: But as a result of AAP winning 28 seats in Delhi, the BJP lost all these seats. All these seats might have gone to BJP. Now if you can divide your opposition then it's the best thing that could happen. We have not created AAP. The AAP is a response to certain political forces that were below the surface and now seen to be above the surface. If the consequence of the AAP coming in is harmful to theBJP it doesn't amount to a conspiracy between the Congress and AAP to do down the BJP. The BJP is being done down because it is not a secular party. And the AAP is a secular country. And this is a secular country. And even if Narendra Modi does not know the meaning of secularism, the people of India instinctively know it. That's why this Advani is shedding crocodile tears ever since the 6th of December 1992. He started that movement to build political power on the basis of religious sentiment. But the minute a place of worship had its domes knocked down , the average Hindu came out with a completely secular response saying you can't do this. And that's why thiese crocodile tears are being shed. So I'm very pleased with the secular nature of the AAP. On other matters, there are serious differences but on secularism, there is no difference. Q: This is what the BJP is saying. They say you are not worried over the party's defeat in Delhi but you are happier with the AAP damaging BJP's chances of government formation in Delhi. Mani: Why shouldn't I be happy? I regard the AAP as a naïve new political entity. They are providing us a laugh a minute in the AAP government. Their Law minister wants to summon all the high court judges. Rakhi Birla gets upset with a boy because his tennis ball came and hit her car. They get all their ministers to travel by metro and in the photographs that were published in newspapers; I saw ‘Ladies Only' written above their heads .What were the two men doing there? They arrive by metro hold a swearing in that cost Rs 80 Lakh to the exchequer when they could have done it for free except for the cost one Samosa and one Jalebi, in the Raj Niwas. And then this ‘Mohalla Sabha' idea! An excellent idea in principle but unless you have converted the Delhi Municipal Corporation ward councilors into those who are responsible to the Mohalla Sabha, the Mohalla Sabha is only mobocracy and all it can decide is whether Arvind Kejriwal shoul brush his teeth with colgate or Pepsodent. It's not a serious form of government. So we have no love lost with AAP. Q: And still you are supporting them? Mani: We couldn't have offered these 8 seats to BJP. This is a deliberate decision. These people are naïve but BJP and the Sangh Parivar as a whole are evil. The fundamental bonding adhesive of our nationhood as India i.e. Bharat is secularism and that means you have an innate belief that the Muslim, Christian and Sikh are as much Indians as Hindus are. But anyone who espouses the philosophy of Hindutva is using a word which was invented by V D Savarkar who was an atheist who then translated it himself into English saying Hindutva means Hindudom in exactly the same way as Christendom means the rule of the Christians. It's in his published writings. So if the BJP says that Bhartiyata means Rashtriyata and Rashtriyata means Hindutva, they are talking nonsense. It means they are 85 percent Indians whereas we, whether AAP or I, are 100 percent Indians. And this rift valley is so great and so critical to our nationhood that anyone who is opposed to BJP is potentially my friend. And I'm very proud to say that we have refused to work with BJP ever since the time of Jansangh. We are the only party in India that never had anything to do with them. That's the fundamental difference. It's not any other political party. I regard it as an anti-national force. Q: Coming to economic philosophy of Kejriwal govt, do you think there can be serious ramifications for Delhi's economy in view of the fact that this govt is taking decisions like halving electricity bills and free drinking water? Mani: He has postponed his decision on electricity. And I'm still laughing at his decision on water. Hre says he'll give 667 litres of free water provided it's metered. You can't get a meter unless it's connected and connections are only given to regularized colonies. So all those who can afford to pay for 667 litres of water are getting it free while all those who can't afford to pay are not getting water at all. Q: So for how long would you support this govt when you have so many differences? Will you support them for 5 years just to keep BJP out of power. Mani: We'll support them as long as they don't make some horrendous mistake. We'll try and teach them. I have made an open offer that on Panchayati Raj, organizing the Mohalla Sabhas and so forth, where I personally have considerable expertise and I have just recently produced a five volume report, I said I'll give it you. And I don't want to name him but just a few minutes before you came here, somebody connected to the AAP has visited me and accepted my offer and taken away the five volumes. I'm willing to cooperate with anyone, even the BJP on Panchayati Raj. When I was minister of Panchayat Raj, I worked very closely with Bhupendra Chudasama of Gujarat . He wanted me to come to Gujarat . I went to every state of India on Panchayat Raj except one state i.e. Gujarat because Narendra Modi would not let Chudasama invite me. And he calls himself very transparent, open. He knew that I could make him benaqab in next to no time by going and seeing the Pancayat system in the state. Because theoretically, I knew what his defects were. Q: Is it not very ironical that you are supporting AAP in Delhi but in Amethi ,Kumar Vishwas launched a scathing attack on Rahul Gandhi. He used very strong language against Rahul Gandhi. Mani: Why do you have to wait for Amethi. This kejriwal iDelhi and his people on a daily basis, no I'm wrong, on an hourly basis, no, I'm wrong, on a second by second basis, are abusing the Congress here. But we know that whatever he says about us, he is at least, not targeting Muslims, helpless minorities. Targetting Rahul Gandhi is a part and parcel of political discourse. Targeting the minorities only because they are minorities, is a blow to Mother India. There is a big difference between the two. Q: There are some people who believe that Arvind Kejriwal could be a viable alternative to both Congress and BJP at the national level. How would you react to that? Mani: With amusement (Laughs) Q: Prime Minister in his press conference said that it will be disastrous if Narendra Modi becomes the Prime Minister of India. There is a section that believes that PM should not have used such harsh language against Modi. And maybe this is an insult to the people of Gujarat who have elected him three times in a row. Mani: The section of the people which is taking offence is the BJP and that is why Gujarat is brought in. This fascist called Narendra Modi has perfected the art of Adolf Hitler in using about those who do not agree with him the kind of language that Hitler used to use about the jews. Therefore, I do not expect them to moderate their language or have a skin that is tough enough to take one word from the Prime Minister – disaster, and get so upset about it. I believe that if Mr Modi doesn't think that Dr Manmohan Singh has used the correct word, let me use the correct word – it will be a total, utter, bloody disaster. Q: The PM said that he thought history would be kinder to him. How do you interpret that? Mani: The reason he said that was he thought after there is an objective evaluation and not a prejudiced evaluation of his performance then his record would show that he has done a great deal of good things for this country. Now Arun Jaitley has made the point that long before history, the coming elections will give a verdict. We are ready to face the elections. Is Mr Jaitley ready to face the AAP taking 100 of his seats? Q: What repercussion do you see for India if Modi becomes the Prime Minister? Mani: That everything that has made us a noble country in our eyes and in the eyes of the world will just be thrown away. He doesn't believe in our secularism. That's the first and most important thing. And his behavior at the time of 2002 riots is such that the only American we can compare him to is Kissinger. And since the Americans have refused a visa to Modi, I think we should refuse a visa to Kissinger. These are both people who think that genocide is a part and parcel of normal politics. Q: How do you rate the performance of Dr Manmohan Singh as the PM in last 10 years? Mani: There have been ups and downs and that happens with every government. But some of the changes he has made are paradigm changes. I'm a socialist. I'm not happy about our moving towards the market. But I know we'll never go back to Nehruvian socialism. We'll remain with this mix. I comfort myself with the thought that Jawahar Lal Nehru said that he is inflexible on democracy but flexible on the ratio between public-private sector. Therefore, maybe if Nehru had been the PM today, he would have adopted more or less the same path on liberalization of the economy that Dr Manmohan Singh has. I wasn't, at all, happy about our moving into being the natural partner of America. There is a book that has come out by Hussain Haqqani about the US-Pakistan relationship based on some magnificent delusions. And I think some of our strategic relationship with US is based on magnificent illusions of parity. The Americans are not willing to accord us the status of parity which is why congratulations to Manmohan Singh and Salman Khurshid for having really stood up to Americans as no other country has stood up to them over this Devyani Khobragade affair. Q: Coming to 2014 elections, what political combinations do you see for Congress especially in Tamil Nadu where you are not left with many allies? Mani: We have known how to fight on our own. Congress will have to survive, whether we fight it alone or in alliance. Our aim in Delhi should be to form a govt on our own. But if we can't then we have to, in a practical sense, see how our democracy can be saved and promoted. That decision has to be taken in May; it doesn't have to be taken today. Q: Will you be contesting again in 2014 Lok Sabha elections? Mani: Tumhare muh me ghee-shakkar (laughs)…I hope Congress gives me the ticket, I want to fight from my constituency Mayiladuthurai in Tamil Nadu. Q: Coming to Panchayati Raj, you headed an expert committee that has submitted its report to the government but they are yet to take any action. Do you think the govt is serious in implementing your report? Mani: I think the Prime Minister is because the PM's immediate reaction was to order the cabinet secretary on the 6th of August 2013 to issue a circular to all the secretaries concerned with centrally sponsored schemes to bring the guidelines of the schemes in conformity with the constitutional provisions as recommended by our committee. Now at that time the circular gave a two month deadline and I have been following it up very closely with both PMO and the cabinet secretariat. The secretaries to the Govt of India are not reacting with alacrity that they should. But the exercise is on; it is being monitored from PMO and by cabinet secretary. So in the light of this, I cannot say that they are not serious. All I can say is that they have thus far not successful. Q: You said you are completely cut off from decision making process of Congress. Do you believe that there is a coterie in Congress that is deliberately keeping you out of the decision making process? Who do you blame for it? Mani: Allah Jane…How would I know? I don't think that in terms of my mental faculties or my physical health, I would be a handicap to the Congress. But only if the Congress leadership wishes to associate me, can I make my contribution. What has happened is that on three matters that were crucial to the Rajiv Gandhi legacy, the zonal cultural centres, the universal nuclear disarmament and Panchayat Raj, in the last four years after my defeat in 2009 elections, I have been made the Chairman of three different groups. And Today, I have been given cabinet rank as the chairman of a committee that is coordinating the work of zonal cultural centres. So I think the party leadership has concluded that I have more to contribute to certain sectors of governance than I have to party work. I had been warned of this by Rajiv Gandhi. Rajiv told me when he was refusing to give me the permission to quit the civil service. He said, Mani, I'll never be able to make you a minister. I said, I accept. He said- but I have to tell you, why? This system will never accept you. He said that it did not accept Arun Nehru, leave alone Arun Singh and you want to come into it. I said, sir, all I want you to make me a Rajya Sabha member and I am not asking you to make me a minister. He asked- now or never? On the assurance that I would not ever be made a minister, I joined the Congress party.And the same party has kept me as a cabinet minister for four different portfolios for 5 years. So why should I be complaining. In politics, if you don't know how to rise and fall, You can't be in politics and you should not be in polics. As a politician- kabhi haath aa jaata hai, kabhi chalaa jaata hai. Q: As a former diplomat, how do you look at Indo-US relationship in the aftermath of Devyani Khobragade episode? What are the key learnings for Indian diplomacy? Mani: This episode is just that, it's an episode. There are certain lessons with regard to consular and diplomatic conventions which I think have already been learnt by both sides. The Indo-US strategic partnership was always a source of concern for me because I wondered whether India would be able to stand up to the Americans and looked them in the eyes when there was a disagreement. What has happened is that on the Devyani episode, the Govt of India has stood up and looked them in the eyes, and in a way Britain could never do it, France could never do it, Germany could never do it and of course, Pakistan could never do it. So we have proved, at least to my satisfaction, that notwithstanding the strategic partnership with the US, we have not lost our independence. That is a very great source of satisfaction for me. If you had asked me this question two months ago , you may have received a different answer. But now I'm so proud of my country and govt standing up to Americans especially because I have served in Pakistan, it's the country that interest me the most, and seeing the way in which the alliance with America has reduced them to cringing nonsense. As I read in an article, even the Pakistanis are looking with great admiration at the ability of India to stand up to Americans. Q: Final question on Pakistan. You said Pakistan interests you the most. How do you look at the present status of Indo-Pakistan relationship? Do you think that there can be a real feasible solution to Kashmir issue which they say is central to Indio-Pakistan relationship? Mani: There are perhaps two people in India who are deeply convinced that there is a feasible solution. One is Mani Shankar Aiyar and the other is Dr Manmohan Singh. Manmohan Singh said on day one virtually that he wanted to work towards achieving what is feasible. And his performance in the first three years in terms of relationship with Pervez Musharraf's Pakistan was so outstanding that everything including Kashmir issue was on its way to resolution. Unfortunately, Pervez Musharraf quarreled with his judiciary before Dr Manmohan Singh went to Pakistan. And ever since then, things have not worked out. But in my view, the PM of India could yet do what Indian PM did in 1984. As soon as Rajiv became the Prime Minister, he ordered the PMO to look into the possibility by an Indian PM to China. In 1988, a good 34 years after the last Indian Prime Minister Jawahar Lal Nehru had been to China, Rajiv went to China. Although there were many ups and downs in that relationship including Arunachal Pradesh controversy, Rajiv stuck to his intention and accomplished it. And when he accomplished it, there was a complete sea change in the nature of India-China relationship by setting up mechanisms that would perhaps not ensure the resolution of disputes but would ensure that disputes don't get out of hand. And that I think Dr Manmohan Singh can still do. I was thrilled at the press conference to hear him say that I would still like to visit Pakistan before the end of my tenure. And my reaction was to write him a letter saying please include me in your party if you do go. So I'm still hoping that vis-à-vis Pakistan, Manmohan Singh will do a Rajiv Gandhi . Q: You said that there are two people on Indian side who believe that a feasible solution to Kashmir issue was possible. But is there anybody on Pakistan who is equally optimistic? Mani: The reason that why Manmohan Singh and I are convinced that a solution is possible because both of us know Pakistan. He knows Pakistan at a very high level. He also knows Pakistan because he was born and brought up to the age of 8 or 9 in his village near Rawalpindi. I know Pakistan because I stayed there for three years as India's first Counsel General and I have been to Pakistan at least 30 times in last 30 years. There is a huge constituency in Pakistan that wants peace with India. And this constituency includes large segments of political establishment, the security establishment and the administrative establishment. And we are making a huge mistake in not recognizing that we need to strengthen that constituency by structuring our dialogue as uninterrupted and uninterruptible. But what we have instead done especially since 26/11 is to hand over the dialogue to any terrorist or any Pagal who wishes to do something or the other because the minute there is an incident especially with your 24*7 TV and people who I'm not allowed to name here but who are hysterical and who have converted TV journalism into hysteria. Just brush them aside, go to Pakistan, structure the dialogue and I guarantee you that no country will we have a better relationship with than Pakistan because if it hadn't been for the accident of partition ,they would have been citizenship of India and if you can't settle with people who are, if not your brother, at least your first cousin . What is the point in saying that I have very good relationship with Paraguay? We can do it if we settle our minds to it and if you structure it properly.

Kejriwal is naive while Modi is a fascist: Mani Shankar Aiyar tells India TV

New Delhi: Mani Shankar Aiyar is one person who wears his secular credentials on his sleeves. He calls himself a 'secular fundamentalist' and he has very strong views on issues like secularism and communalism. Being

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